Jeroen Mulder Posted…

Remember: tools are tools. It doesn't matter whether they use Dreamweaver or Frontpage, as long as their result is what most of us are looking for; standards compliant and well-formed markup. Where Frontpage might actually require a lot of effort to make it behave, Dreamweaver is quite a nice tool after disabling code-rewriting.

Some of these afore-mentioned tools offer more than what they are advertised with. You could have told her to use Dreamweaver's Source View and told her to change settings. You could have told her to use Notepad, which required no configuration changes. When looking beyond the WYSIWYG features of such tools, you're looking at features that are often directly related to efficiency. Thank god efficiency doesn't affect the resulting code.

David Posted…

Having gone down both paths (and still on the second!), I too would recommend path 2 in terms of the long run. Having a graphic design background first, I ventured into the web using GoLive - which was frustrating, then learned to code by hand - which was liberating, and lately I have been using Dreamweaver and it's automation to speed up some of the 'hand' coding (all the while checking and altering the code directly when needed).

Amidst the bewilderment I have experienced in my journey down path 2, I have found these two sites (among others) to be of great worth:

www.w3schools.com
www.alistapart.com

Darrel Posted…

I think that answer is almost too technical. If you are a print designer and want to start showing of samples of web design, what you are most likely actually wanting to do is show off examples of web page visual design. If so, just whip something up in Photoshop. If what you are truly wanting to do is get into web design, then the answer has nothing to do with specific software tools. Rather, it's simply 'learn HTML. Then CSS. And Javascript. And then other concepts like usability, accessibility, interface design, programming, database logic, etc.'

Jeff Werner Posted…

Beginner wants to try New Way, almost gets it, but is sucked into Old Way. Who can help him?

Friends, even strangers, often ask me for a one-hour tutorial in making a website, with the impression that 90 per cent of web design involves making them look pretty.

Last month my friend James asked for beginner advice. He sort of appreciates what I do and asked that I simply set him on the right path. I seriously considered both New (XHTML/CSS/Notepad) and Old (Dreamweaver) camps, but finally directed him towards the former (even passing on the same HTMLDog link). A week later and James had gone through the first-level tutorials, and we even had a discussion about the use of divs (their proper function was a little abstract for him). But, alas, at a party the other week I overheard a computer programmer--who also "does websites"--agree with the over-complication of divs, and advise James to stick to tables, and in fact just get Dreamweaver as it would do all that work for him.

So this week my friend politely informed me that he has downloaded Dreamweaver and is making great progress on his first website. And so now I'm torn between feelings of failure (at having lost him to the Old Way), of frustration (at having that programmer recommend the Old Way) and of ego (that James doesn't realize I'm right).

But maybe I was wrong. I started out with Dreamweaver, so maybe James should too. And if he continues to show interest and develops some understanding (and frustration with DW), I can then open the door to the New Way. There are a lot of groups responsible for this situation, like the software developers, the web community, and myself for not helping James more closely. It's hard to know who'se responsible for fixing it, but it certianly isn't James.

Simon Posted…

Jeff, what's really gonna be frustrating is when your friend starts to get confident pushing all the buttons in Dreamweaver and then comes back to you like he's somehow surpassed your knowledge. (I had an experience similar to your where a few months later my friend informed me that my head was full of "old school shit!")

If you ask me, the "old school shit" is the place to start. Begin at the outside with an <html> tag and work your way in. Once you know what the buttons are doing, then push them if it saves you time.

Nate Posted…

Yes these are all really interesting observations. It makes me wonder how many folks have actually started "pure", without ever making a web design held together with tables. Maybe it's just as well to learn the old way so that 1. you have a quicker start 2. you eventually have an appreciation of doing things without tables for layout.

I know I certainly started with table based layouts, heck I think I was pretty damn good with them too. But looking back it, the initial hair-pulling of learning css fades away as you learn, but bizarre table based glitches seemed never-ending.

Rob Posted…

I started with Dreamweaver when a friend needed some help updating his client sites with press releases and copy. While looking for Dreamweaver extensions I browsed through a CSS tutorial at projectseven and felt I was missing something big by relying on the software to write the code. If something didn't work right, it would usually take a long, frustrating search through newbie forums to find a solution. Then I stumbled upon the zen garden and took the plunge into learning HTML and CSS. I still feel like the eternal novice of web design, but the sites I build now are faster and more visually appealing, with half the maintenance. I even managed to grab light freelance work helping a company re-tool its existing site from a mess of font tags and tables to a cleaner, standards-based design.

I agree with Jeff. Starting on Dreamweaver is not a terrible way to go, especially with the MX2004's CSS tools. There's a definite "instant web page" gratification to Dreamweaver. For many of the visually-inclined, hand-coding can feel like too much work when the primary goal is making a quick page to display a portfolio of design work. That being said, if your goal K is to offer a web design as a professional service, then it's worth the steeper learning curve to start out with the West Civ tutorials and tools mentioned above. You'll be satisfied (and your skills more marketable) in the long run when you can offer clients graphic design AND efficient, hand-coded web sites.

(As a side note, you probably have a Mac, but if by some chance you're on a PC then go with TopStyle)

Posted…

How come a question about what tool to use ends up as a discussion about css?

Dreamweavers' plus points (to me) are templates, find and replace through multiple documents/whole sites, local/remote copies, and when working with more than one person - check in check out.

Personally I use split screen mode - I can find the section of the code I need to edit far easier with the 'wysiwy(hopefully)g' than code only view; and broken images are a doozi to spot.

It can also do some simple checking - links, orphaned files, and spelling. Validation is there but... not always guaranteed correct. CSS support is fine, easy to do, but slightly'less instant' to find than working with tables. But wanting to use ccss rather than tables is a training issue - and not a tool 'issue'. And 'if your goal K is to offer a web design as a professional service' - then the document management properties of Dreamweaver (and the possibilities of using a simple contribute CMS-lite system) make it a winner.

Richard Rutter Posted…

If what you are truly wanting to do is get into web design, then [...] learn HTML. Then CSS. And Javascript. And then other concepts like usability, accessibility, interface design, programming, database logic, etc.

That all depends if you want to be a one man band who designs, information-architects, builds and codes the whole shebang. I'm not saying a knowledge of all those technologies isn't useful, but there is still the possibility to do just the graphical interface design if you can get to work with someone who will do the rest.

Most of the projects I've ever worked on have been on this basis. I have assumed the role of producer and worked on the wireframes based on the client's requirements. I then sit down with the 'designer' and work out a layout. Then the 'designer' (after talking to the client) mocks up designs in Photoshop. The 'designer' and I then tweak the designs based on my input of what's usable and do-able codewise. Then I build the site.

Perhaps teamwork is an old fashioned approach but it's a good way for a 'designer' to get involved in building successful websites. Like I said, it's worked for me for a number of years.

michael Posted…

Frankly, though I began with HTML for Dummies myself, I think that diving into code in a text editor is a bit overwhelming for someone who wants to get their feet wet. I actually started with Nutscrape Composer (*shudder), then discovered Dreamweaver 3 and realized that it made construction of my first hideous looking site a lot easier!

Without at least an intermediate understanding of HTML, a person is unlikely to grasp the bizarre intricacies of cross-browser XHTML/CSS, imo.

Anyway, I guess what I'm saying is that I think it is more effective from an educational standpoint to start by giving someone a small drink from the fountain than it is to just push them in.

Darrel Posted…

That all depends if you want to be a one man band who designs, information-architects, builds and codes the whole shebang. I’m not saying a knowledge of all those technologies isn’t useful, but there is still the possibility to do just the graphical interface design if you can get to work with someone who will do the rest.

A print designer needs to know the ins and outs of web printing, offset printing, letterpress, screen printing, etc. if they hope to be a competant print designer. That doesn't mean they need to know how to walk into the print shop and do everything themselves, but if they don't understand the tools and the medium, they're simply not going to be a very efficient designer

Now, that said, I've worked in plenty of design firms where designers could hardly figure out their mouse let alone getting files ready for press. You may call them good designers, but I found them to be terribly ineffecient members of the team. When dealing with web design, where there are so many more disciplines, the inefficiencies are compounded.

However, you have a point, and that's kind of my point as well. If you just want to be a visual design and want to make a pretty interface, open up Photoshop and do it. Save it as a GIF and slap it into your portfolio. An employer only looking for visual skills will be just fine with that. An employer looking for a fuller understanding of web skills will not be impressed by some DW generating auto-markup.

Perhaps teamwork is an old fashioned approach

Teamwork is critical in web development. There are so many roles that need to be filled to complete a succesful project. Again, I think we actually agree with each other...we're just saying it in different ways.

Cam C. Posted…

I just wanted to mention that Dreamweaver is actually a pretty good text/CSS editor if you leave it in code-view only mode when you're doing a page that's very heavily dependant on floats for layout. Certainly not the best, but the integration of file management, CSS editing, and text formatting makes it pretty useful.

Granted, it spits out some pretty ugly CSS if you don't go in and reformat by hand (please, nobody look at the stylesheet for my site... I just re-designed and it's a mess!) but if you're used to the interface (I've been using it since version 2) and you don't feel like starting over again with new tools, it's more than enough to develop a good CSS-based site.

Nate Posted…

I appreciate that input Cam C. as I've actually run into a situation where Dreamweaver might be used on a project. I'm downloading the demo to give the code-view only method a try. Do you (or others) have any other tips for successful Dreamweaver use in XHTML/CSS website development?

Kemie Posted…

I use dreamweaver in split-screen mode for xhtml. I complement it with topstyle for css.

While some (bad) tools are more of a hinder than a help if you want to go with Path #2, i find Dreamweaver MX 2004 a great help, that saves me lots of time for complex tasks.

It is probably better for a person to learn html BEFORE they learn the dreamweaver (or other tool) interface, so they know the structure behind and don't rely solely on the wysiwyMg interface, but I see no reason not to use a tool if it helps make your work more efficient.

Darrel Posted…

Kemie hit the nail on the head with that last paragraph. I couldn't (and obviously, DIDN'T) say it better. ;o)

Frank Posted…

I wouldn't want to miss Dreamweavers site management and workflow features. It integrates perfectly with TopStyle for CSS editing. Haven't found a more convincing combination so far..