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› December 16, 2003
Do we code or not?
This morning I had a harsh discussion with an ASP programer. He was claiming that XHTML/CSS is not coding; "It's just arranging a bunch of predefined tags to create a visual result." Lets look at what the dictionary says:
Code: A system of symbols and rules used to represent instructions to a computer; a computer program.
Isn't that what we do? With XHTML/CSS we instruct a web browser to display a message. Sure, it doesn't really involve any crazy math and it is probably not as complicated as ASP, PHP, Javascript, Python, C++, etc. But in my eyes, what we do is still considered "coding".
Or am I wrong?
Comments
1. December 16, 2003 05:42 PM
2. December 16, 2003 05:58 PM
owen Posted…
It is a combination of both design and programming but it is not as much programming as it is web design. Since programers have no design skills, designers can not be considered programmers++. somebody else could explain this better than I can.
3. December 16, 2003 06:03 PM
andrew Posted…
Coding, maybe. (En-coding might be more accurate.) Programming, no.
By this definition above you could say that using Illustrator is coding: you're using a system of rules and symbols to give a computer instructions. If you export as XML you've written something very like an XHTML document. Is what you've done "coding?"
There's a reason Java's not called "Java Markup Language." Programming implies a control over logic, which HTML and CSS lack completely. Without variables, conditional structures, and looping structures, there's nothing "programmed."
Anyway, it is just arranging a predefined set of tags. It's arguable whether the result is strictly "visual" rather than "semantic" but that's a very very minor point; all semantic XHTML has an implicit visual view as well.
It's very common--not just in technology--to feel that "what I do is at least at the bottom of the hardest level of my field, maybe higher. But what a lot of other people do is definately easier."
4. December 16, 2003 06:10 PM
Nick Finck Posted…
Technically speaking, we do no "code", we "mark up" ....HTML is a markup language, not a programming language. Just like JavaScript is a scripting language, not a markup language or a programming language. Trust me, unless you have programmed in Java (no, not applets) or actually learned XSLT you won't really get my point here.
It's a simple case of word missuse. I have tried to fight this issue in my own small ways.. but no one will ever get it... markup is markup, not code. Think of how may people use the word "blog" to explain that they posted a message to their weblog? It's "weblogged" if anything... not blog, but I'll leave that up to the experts to debate.
5. December 16, 2003 06:10 PM
vlad Posted…
the act of producing html/css is coding, but not programming. programming must involve logic while coding does not necessarily.
having said that, i must admit that for some idiotic reason it really annyons me when people who know html claim to be programmers.
6. December 16, 2003 06:14 PM
andrew Posted…
Another thing to ask is: why does it matter?
What's the benefit to be gained from allying ourselves with "programmers" or "designers?" What do we lose by taking on one or the other term? Or do we want it both ways, to be "designers" and "coders?" It's clear that this doesn't boil down to simply a job title issue (like, am I an "Information Architect" or "Content Manager" or "Technical Writer?"), or even the longstanding conversation around "do we call it interaction design, interaction architecture, just-plain-design, or what?"
The answers might vary depending on the job at hand, or the work environment. Or what you get paid. In many cases it seems to be a respect issue: designers often perceive they get less respect than coders, or that people think the job is easy. If you know your work is hard, and valuable, but others don't, just taking another job title won't change much. Do others know what criteria good HTML is judged? Do they know how much time a given HTML job takes? Do you communicate the value of your work well?
Writing some HTML tags is a very easy thing. There's no argument with that and even your boss can probably look at your work and think "that's pretty simple looking stuff." Writing good HTML that provides perceptible value to clients, team members, or users, and works cross-browser, along with that funky CMS you're using, is hard. If you can communicate those things, ASP programmers won't accuse you of having an easy job.7. December 16, 2003 06:22 PM
Aaron Posted…
I run into this same question all of the time
My usual answer is to say that I am a front-end programmer. XHTML/CSS is not nearly as complex as PHP/ASP/Coldfusion, but I've got to say it is code. If not, what is it?
8. December 16, 2003 06:30 PM
andrew Posted…
Back to my point above about respect and labels, why does anyone here personally prefer to be called "programmer" or "designer?"
9. December 16, 2003 07:02 PM
Nate Posted…
I think some of the confusion is due to the dot com boom days. Seems like during that heady time there were more full-time positions available where the responsibilities were entirely limited to (what I think of as) markup. Lately though, seems like everyone who does/did markup, also does either design or coding or all three.
I think it's best to think of XHTML as "markup" because, as others have indicated here, it's really a labeling structure (when used ideally). But if ones responsibilities include both XHTML and CSS, perhaps it's best to be called "designer" since adding CSS style declarations to markup requires graphic design skills. Even if a general design is predetermined, how often is every contingency accounted for in a given design mockup?
So this discussion has perhaps split into three questions: What's the best way to label the skill sets? What is the best way to label the professions? Are these distinctions important or nitpicky?
10. December 16, 2003 07:18 PM
Nick Finck Posted…
Wel, I would never call someone who creates HTML a "designer" ...even someone who creates CSS is far from a "designer." Again, I point back to missuse of the words.
To answer the followup question. If I create HTML, I call myself a web developer. If I create web interfaces in a graphical program, I call myself a web designer. If I write "code", as in Java, I would call myself a web programmer (not a "web coder"). If I do both the work of a web designer and a web developer, I would call myself a hybrid designer (look it up).
11. December 16, 2003 07:33 PM
Nate Posted…
"Hybrid Designer"? What on earth? That requires more explanation than the other three labels! If you work with CSS you *should* ideally be a designer, or have strong design skills - imho.
12. December 16, 2003 07:55 PM
Andy Curtis Posted…
I'd say that HTML, etc is coding, but certainly not programing. But that's been covered... I just wanted to add that people on here at least have the right notion that programming scripting languages (PHP, Python, Perl) is still programming. Drives me nuts when people say that a scripting language isn't a programming language because it's not compiled.
Not that it really matters... just one more thing for nerds to argue about, kind of like Python vs. Perl.
13. December 16, 2003 08:08 PM
Egor Kloos Posted…
Coding in an ambiguous term and isn't very useful to reflect ones occupation. Personally I've found that a 'coder' is a programmer. Someone who writes Javascript and or PHP code I consider to be a web developer, with a distinction between front-end and back-end
Designers on the whole do not write any code of any description, that includes CSS. If fact most designers I know are not directly involved in the production process. Any code they do produce often isn't used in final production. Whenever a designer does deliver (markup) code it would be considered to be an additional skill to facilitate the production process.
Adding style to a document doesn't mean you are a designer. Writing (Java)scripts doesn't make you a web developer and coding in Java doesn't make you a programer. Having additional skills can be an asset but be aware of your core focus and the skills this requires. As a designer myself I can not afford to focus too much on actual productions skills (xHTML, CSS etc.) because my work as a designer may suffer due to the fact that these skills are not part of my core focus.
14. December 16, 2003 08:14 PM
P01 Posted…
English is not my mother language, but AFAIR I've always used the term "coding" in english and made no distinction between "coding" and "programming". Nonetheless, as others said above, markup languages are more about en-coding, but it's just a matter of ( computer ) language.
I share NATE's opinion that XHTML+CSS is quite close to the design aspect of the web thus I call people doing XHTML+CSS "web designers", while I call "web developers" the ones doing web applications like a back office or an intranet.
[ "troll" mode ] And, WTF do an ASP programer know about code ? [ /"troll" mode ] Sorry for this stupid interlude but the syntax of ASP never did it with me >__<
15. December 16, 2003 11:01 PM
Simon Willison Posted…
If you work with CSS you *should* ideally be a designer, or have strong design skills - imho.
I couldn't disagree more. I'm a terrible designer but I'm pretty good with CSS, and in the past I've got great results from working /with/ designers - they give me the graphics, I work out the details of attaching them to markup using CSS. I'm not saying designers shouldn't do that themselves if they want to (the designer I work with now is a dab hand with CSS) but it shouldn't need to be an integral part of their job - they're meant to design, not wrestle with box model hacks and weird browser behaviours. Likewise my complete lack of visual design talent does nothing to stop me from using CSS on a day to day basis to create new sites or make existing sites better.
As to whether or not HTML is "coding", that seems like a silly question since what constitutes coding is ill-defined at best. If the ASP programmer meant "programming" then he's right, HTML isn't programming. In fact, the reason most web sites are in such a sorry state is that people treat HTML like a programming language - they use it to get a piece of software (almost always IE/Windows) to do exactly what they want, and keep on adding and tweaking their HTML until it does - rather than treating HTML as a markup language and using CSS (which could almost but not quite be thought of as a declarative programming language) to get the look of the site how they want it.
The distinction between programming and scripting language is fuzzy to the point of not even existing any more. I certainly consider Javascript a programming language - it's a high-level, interpreted, prototype-object-based dynamically typed language. It's generally /used/ for scripting, but it could equally well be used for any data processing task. Since it's used for scripting you could equally call it a scripting language, but I see scripting languages as a way of categorising some programming languages, not a separate concept entirely.
16. December 16, 2003 11:37 PM
17. December 17, 2003 12:01 AM
Chris L Posted…
After all this I have no idea what I should call myself... I design sites in Photoshop/Fireworks, turn the designs into (X)HTML/CSS, write relevant client side javascript and then take care of the back end in ASP/PHP/Cold Fusion. To top things off, I've also written dlls and desktop apps.
I guess I'm a web designer/developer/programmer - though I'm with Nate on the whole XHTML/CSS = designer. Technically you could write XHTML/CSS without actually possessing any design skills, but I can't imagine there are too many of these people - generally they're ushered toward the server side of things.
18. December 17, 2003 04:26 AM
João Nelas Posted…
Well i guess that we programers take the same view toward people calling themselves coders (or programmers) as most designers take to someone wrongly calling himself a designer.
After you spend a considerable amount of time educating yourself in some field, the fact that people take such a casual aproach to your "title" tends to make you a bit combative
19. December 17, 2003 04:54 AM
Ben Darlow Posted…
Is writing markup and style declarations writing code? Well, yes. But is it programming? I don't imagine anyone could argue that it is. But is that really the argument the ASP programmer in question was trying to make? I suspect not.
One only has to take a look at the recruiting market to see which skills are in demand and which are of lesser importance. Microsoft technology (and in particular, web-based) programming languages are clearly at the forefront, not just for larger companies but significantly also the small to medium sized ones. Other skills such as markup (typically referred to under the larger umbrella of “HTML” - I have lost track of the number of times recruitment agencies asked me if I knew XHTML and then later asked if I knew HTML) and CSS are almost always lower in importance.
Is it any wonder then that when companies and recruiters believe these are secondary skills, so also do the developers who don't use them much? The years in which HTML was abused as a means of achieving some obscure layout and to hell with the markup have obviously helped nurture a view amongst programmers that it is just visual glue - the placeholders for the content they generate.
If this sort of view is to be changed, then some sort of grass-roots awareness campaign needs to take place amongst developers. Obviously not everyone holds these views, but clearly some in positions of authority, do. Until those whose jobs are related to developing systems, content or functionality for the web realise the importance of markup (and CSS too, one would hope), these views will continue to persist.
20. December 17, 2003 07:40 AM
Tony Posted…
I know I consider working with logic/code (database, server-side, ColdFusion, JSP etc), presentation/code (user-side, HTML/CSS, Javascript) and design (wireframes, UI, widgets, photoshop, colors) all separate activites. I don't seamlessly move from one to the other, it requires a shift in thinking.
That's not to say that when working with HTML/CSS that I'm not coding. I very well might be. I think it depends. I'm not doing any back-end logic, but I'm working out the best way to present my information. This involves speed, accessibility, maintainability. (and more that I'm probably not thinking of right now.) Is that "coding"? Maybe. It depends. What I'm doing here in this comment box isn't coding. (wrapping my paragraphs in P tags)
I don't care what you call it. I don't think I care. (as long as it's something that sounds cool I guess, I don't want to be labeled with a lame title....) I've just always associated HTML/CSS with the presentational layer, and treated it as such. It somewhat bridges the gap between "programmer" and "designer" in the classic sense, especially when you add in things like Javascript, accessibility, browers, etc.
21. December 17, 2003 01:43 PM
David House Posted…
It's coding, but it's not programming — two things a lot of people get mixed up. Programming is sending instructions, Coding is a more general term that includes markup (ie: (X)HTML).
22. December 17, 2003 08:11 PM
23. December 17, 2003 10:34 PM
liorean Posted…
Time for me to add fuel to the fire. I would say that we aren't just marking up, because not only do we create a structure for content, we are in many cases developing a site's structure without consideration for the actual content (which our customers often supply), but with very much consideration to both graphical and textual presentation, semantics, and functionality in the user agents. We're frequently coding a template for others to insert the content into. As for CSS, that adds a layer of handling and logics, but it is not programming, because we are not actually adding any processing. XSLT on the other hand can be considered to be at least scripting, because there we are doing rather heavy processing, and some logics. JavaScript adds a set of layers that I would say are definitely in the programming category. We are doing content/structure handling, processing, logics, adding functionality. It's programming. Just because it's a scripting language doesn't mean it isn't a programming language, and JavaScript can do all things that defines a programming language. Yes, even IO - but like many other languages, JavaScript's core langauge doesn't supply the features, they must be added by the implementation or as libraries which are in turn hooked into the interpreter. Resin, which features a JavaScript -> Java bytecode compiler, makes this obvious. JScript.NET and Epimetheus just emphasises this. It's a full-fledged programming language, which in difference from many other languages, but far from all, concentrates on the core language and leaves libraries and interfaces up to the implementors.
As we web designers or web developers dabble in all of these technologies, and often a few more related with either graphics, markup, database or back end scripting, I would say the word coders describes us pretty well.
// liorean
24. December 18, 2003 10:42 AM
P Posted…
I ran into this thread and had to comment. This subject is a religious war between people like me, a classically trained software developer, and the countless html “coders” or designers that the Internet boom brought into the field. Let us be clear, people like me are pissed off folks. We have lost over 4 million jobs in our sector in the U.S. and this is one of the reasons. I studied mathematics, logic, engineering, and computer science. I received a technical degree and act like it’s my birth right to be called a software developer. I find this is typical of people “classically” trained. In fact, the smarter they are, or the more obtuse the tool they use to develop – the more arrogant they get. I’ve got old school C++ guys calling me a sellout or a sissy because I chose not to stick with old crap architectures and instead moved to web based dev. I consider the move progress on my part…
Those of you who are front-end developers, html-coders, scripters – whatever - most likely didn’t get a degree in anything remotely related to classic software engineering. Chances are you studied Art History or Communications, or God forbid, marketing. What are you people doing writing software? Well, you’re not really writing software are you? You’re creating interfaces – an important part of software design. This is all well and good. We each bring something unique to the table. I can do some of the stuff you front enders can -- and I can admit you can do some of the crap I do on the middle tier and back end. But this cheapens both of us...
So why all the hate? Bottom line – money. What you are called at work equals cash. The fact remains, those of you without the science degrees wish you had them. Why? Because you want the money, or the imagined respect you think people like me get. News flash – we don’t make that much more than you. And we certainly aren’t more respected. If I had a dollar for every “designer” who “coded” a page or got a row of data out of a database – I’d retire rich. Same goes for the programmers I know who drew a widget that didn’t default to the color gray! They learned the color red in school and now they are designers – sound familiar? You want to be me. I want to be you.
Thus the religious war is based on a lack of respect between the two groups, right? Well – that and the fact we both think we are professionals. We are struggling to prove our field worthy of the term “professional”. The low barrier of entry, in the form of HTML, CSS, and even PHP and ASP is the main reason we aren’t considered a true profession. That low barrier, whether it be language, no need for higher education, or no industry associations to protect us, allows Tom, Dick, and Harry to do what you do -- in 4 weeks time.(You aren’t a doctor nor are you a lawyer, Google what makes them a real profession). I could go on forever on this…but I’ll spare you. Just my 2 cents….
25. December 18, 2003 11:33 AM
Tom Posted…
I think we can step back and read the original post: The conundrum was whether or not xHTML/CSS was "coding" NOT "programming." They didn't have an argument about whether or not it was programming. HTML?CSS is NOT programming, that's easy.
I would say the HTML/CSS *is* coding. It's more than just designating "tags" around because there in fact IS some sort of logic (however light that logic is) in structuring things. And frankly, you have to know a bit about what you are doing or the end product is going to be junk.
One note about CSS - there is some sort of logic involved when you talk about cascading effects. It's not traditional programming logic (but we aren't considering HTML "coders" programmers, are we?) but it is a type of logic. If you want to step into more advanced design with CSS you need to be aware of how that logic works.
On a side note, interestingly enough my title at work is "interaction designer" which I think sums up fairly well what I do in regard to user interfaces. It doesn't necessarily match with work I do in JavaScript or JSP, but for the HTML stuff, it fits perfectly.
Now get back to your coding! ;)
26. December 18, 2003 01:15 PM
gk Posted…
"Coding" is writing somthing understandable from a computer.
"Programming" is writing somthing understandable from a computer that implies a flow and/or some kind of logic
"Programming" is a subset of "Coding"
As a matter of fact you can say "i'm writing an XML code" but not "i'm writing an XML program".
Programming and developping web interfaces are very different works with different difficulties but with equal dignity.
-- gk27. December 18, 2003 05:34 PM
Wilson Posted…
The IRS thinks so. The state of Kansas charges sales tax on website development, because they consider a web site to be a software product. Not that that makes any sense.
28. December 19, 2003 06:57 AM
wookie Posted…
Very slightly off-topic, but this has a parallel with a personal gripe of mine; TV pundits calling themselves designers. Especially interior decorators... A trained interior designer will analyse space use and 'traffic' flow, investigate a range of possible functional and aesthetic considerations and work with the client to arrive at a suitable solution. TV pundits on the other hand pick colours, fabrics and surface decorations, riding roughshod over the clients requirements in the pursuit of whatever fashionable/pretty/trendy ideal has taken their fancy today. As a trained interior designer in a past life I always take umbridge at this being promoted to the public as what 'design' is about; style over substance - it goes against everything I learnt at college and my experience in the industry.
In this light I can see exactly why programmers might have a hard time with web producers calling such a lowly and elementary system a 'programming language' - regardless of whether it is technically true or not!
29. December 19, 2003 07:19 AM
30. December 19, 2003 11:19 AM
adam Posted…
Of course it's coding. It requires rules, hierarchy,comprehension, a relationship between all elements and an understanding of those elements.
31. December 20, 2003 12:14 PM
withoutreason Posted…
coding, scripting, programming, en-coding, or de-coding... english language employs several contradictions, see EMPLOYS... is the word CONTRADICTION working? does it get paid? hey! it's the weekend...
i know javascripting is scripting... i also know that javascript when used with html & css can manipulate the variables of IDed or CLASSed objects within a web page... so, would that be OBJECT ORIENTED SCRIPTING???
32. December 21, 2003 05:00 PM
lohenien Posted…
html and xml is not programming on the same level as say video game programming or software programming . on a technical level html and xml are mark up languages that give web browsers instructions which isbasically programming.
the idea here is the difficulty of programming say Mortal Kombat or programming Adobe Photoshop as compared with arranging text and words on a web page.
html and xml are strictly for data arrangement whereas CGI scripts or asp of Java script are capable of doing more than making things look pretty
the thing to remeber is they are two differnt fields that have similarities such as fighter pilots and commercial piilots niether are completely easy but both use similar concepts and technology
33. December 21, 2003 05:22 PM
Iain Posted…
Fighter pilots => game programming.
Commercial pilots => business/web programming.
Kite flying => HTML/CSS
34. December 22, 2003 10:41 AM
Reinmar Posted…
When speaking of HTML we refer to source *code*. If markup isn't a type of code, are we wrong in doing so?
The way I see it, if you write (X)HTML markup you code. If you write CSS declarations you code, too. But in neither case do you actually program (see above discussion for definition models).
What HTML/CSS/JavaScript writers (let's call them web designers) should realize is that "real" programmers/developers have a right to be annoyed when they hear web designers calling themselves programmers.
On the other hand, those "real" programmes should understand that any competent web designer is doing an important job too and should thus not belittle him/her. Of course there are cases where someone posesses enough competence in both areas to rightfully claim the double title.
It's a two-way thing and we should not resort to bashing each other over definitions.
35. December 23, 2003 03:50 PM
Nick Finck Posted…
“Hybrid Designer”? What on earth? That requires more explanation than the other three labels!
There is a whole book on the subject. See "Integrated Design: Holistic Strategies for Mastering the Web" by Molly E. Holzschlag. In short, a hybrid designer is someone who designs (i.e. graphics, layout, typography for the web site) and developes (i.e. HTML/XHTML, CSS, JavaScript, etc.)
If you work with CSS you *should* ideally be a designer, or have strong design skills - imho.
I couldn't disagree more. I think you are an idealist and I would agree with your comments if I was an idealist too... but I am not... I am a realist, and because of that I do not think that anyone who works with CSS is specifically skilled as a graphical designer. That's not to say that they can't be skilled in both (i.e. hybrid designers), but most are not... it's pretty obvious by looking at a site they created or designed. The gap between technically understanding the web and how it works and understanding design and how design works is really what my pub is all about... and I think more people should invest some time in learning both aspects if we are ever going to find a decent balance of form and function on the web.
36. December 23, 2003 06:06 PM
Calvin Walton Posted…
I think that the answer to this question goes to an even more generic definition of the word code: a code is simple a way of formatting something so that it can be understood by something. A good example is talking—people have created language as a code, to allow them to communicate. So HTML is a code, a method of formatting communication so it can be understood, and we are (en-)coders.
37. December 23, 2003 06:10 PM
Jim Posted…
If it is not in plain (english) language it is code that a machine reads on some level. It has been encoded for machine usage. Coding is giving the machine and its operating system instructions to do tasks. There are different types of encoding involving overlapping skill sets. The current arguments are just ego trip fads that come and go over the years. I remember when MASM programmers looked down upon any other programmers because they were too far away from the hardware. DOS and mainframe programmers always looked down on windows programmers (some probably still do).
38. December 23, 2003 09:05 PM
Brian Broom Posted…
What we do shouldn't be considered programming, but only because it really should be easier to do. Write the HTML, pick out sections using CSS and you are done. But then there is testing on multiple browser, debuging things that don't work correctly, tracking down hacks to make one browser or another work correctly. This really doesn't seem that different than most of the *real* programming I've done.
39. December 24, 2003 02:22 AM
Christopher Lord Posted…
I think of XHTML and CSS as attributed declarative markup, not 'code' of the programming sort. Code implies control over execution flow, with a definite order, variables, memory allocation, and the implicit understanding that everything is possible. In a nutshell, programming or coding is molding a Turing machine to do what you want it to.
Declarative markup is information storage. It is a way of feeding a Turing machine or another human being with data and metadata (formatting, meaning, context, etc). The entire concept of a semantic web is predicated on storing meaning and context in-line with the main data stream.
The two sides of computation are data storage/retrieval and data processing, and these are entered in two different ways: markup and code. Making markup Turing complete (asp's inline code), or making Turing-complete languages have a robust data model (X#) are novel, but the merely hide the duality.
40. December 24, 2003 01:28 PM
Todd Lynch Posted…
Definition (www.dictionary.com):
Code, v. intr : (Computer Science) To write or revise a computer program.
Definition:
computer program, n : (computer science) A sequence of instructions that a computer can interpret and execute; "the program required several hundred lines of code"
XHTML / CSS are not instructions in the sense of this definition and they are not executed (Note: Javascript is). Writing XHTML/CSS therefor IS NOT coding or programming in the computer science sense.
41. December 24, 2003 11:24 PM
jerry Posted…
Of course it is!
And some c++ programmers were claiming that asp is not coding because asp is not as complicated as c++.
It's really funny, isn't it?
42. December 30, 2003 11:46 PM
Dud3! Posted…
I don't consider it "coding" or programming and I despise people using "coding".
What I do when I make a web page/site is use descriptive markup "tokens", if you will, that go before and after a piece of content (text, images, etc) and I know what a web browser is going to do to that content when it encounters a token surrounding it. So what is that? Is that programming? Not to me.
CSS is a detailed way of suggesting to the browser how you would like your content positioned, styled, formatted, etc, but I don't consider it programming either.
I could go on, but I can't really think of all the points I'd liked to make at the moment. All I know is that I don't want anyone calling me a programmer (because I would be ashamed to have that lable stuck to me when I know next to nothing about programming), and I certainly don't want a stupid word like "coding" used to describe what I do. When I see "coding" or "coder" all I can think of are those cheesy "Get your free Javascripts here!" sites...
Oh well, let's just make up a new term and get it over with! How's Woozle Frub sound? "Yeah, I make websites, I'm a Woozle Frub" ;)
43. January 1, 2004 05:57 PM
Zapata Posted…
To me a programmer writes code that implements an algorithmic solution to a given problem.
Now: is HTML a programming language? No, it's a way to describe how a given content will be shown.
Now, to the diference between Programming and Scripting: there's none. The only difference is that when someone is programming, the final code gets compiled into machine code. In scripting, the code is interpreted everytime we want to run it.
But what about the Java example. In Java, you write code, then compile it to bytecode. BUT after that, the bytecode must be interpreted (run) by a JVM. So, is Java a programming language, or a scripting language? Who cares, the diference is not important. In the bottom line, scripting languages are just a type of programming languages that have their own set of characteristics (they are interpreted, etc).
This takes us to another level: being a programmer is not about knowing the sintax of a language, be it a scripting language, or a programming language. It's about solving problems with algorithms.
Some examples:
- can HTML be used to go through a list of numbers and show only the odd (or even) ones? C, C++, Java, PHP, ASP, Perl, and so on, can all be used to solve that problem.
Microsoft Word can add formatting to content inside a document with a click. It can add a bold, chose a font, and so on. Is "using MS Word to format data" programming? No, far from it.
- Can HTML be used to parse a sequence of characteres take something out of them, and then apply some rules to them? C, C++, Java, PHP, and so on, can.
That last example is what browsers do: they take tags that surrond data and apply formating to them creating the document.
This doesn't mean that HTML/XHTML and the likes are not important. They are, and they imply their own knowleage.
The bottom line is this: writing HTML is not programming. It's a different thing, so whoever does it has a title that is not "programmer".
44. January 1, 2004 06:49 PM
45. February 23, 2004 07:55 PM
46. July 15, 2004 08:14 PM
47. January 17, 2005 01:54 PM
Ryan, Web Designer Posted…
Sure it's coding... Sometimes I'm amazed by how the programmers talk. I guess they see the world in a special way. It's like ina joke - there are only 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary and those who don't :))
48. December 5, 2005 10:36 AM
Corey Rosamond Posted…
Well yes and what did you expect anyone that is using a Microsoft product out of choice must have some mental problems he has to be trying to compensate for somthing and make himself feal better. Written by Coreycyberdesign@hotmail.com
Patrick Griffiths Posted…
Yep. It be code it be.
Of course it's code. The argument you had sounds like the typical 'HTML is easy' argument that many programmers have.
And I don't think ASP, PHP, Javascript, Python, C++ etc. is more complicated. They're completely different skills.
HTML and CSS is painting with code.